Considering deploying DP48s and have questions

DP48, Hub4 mixing eco-system
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DwayneA
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:00 pm

Considering deploying DP48s and have questions

Post by DwayneA »

Hi all.

We are considering upgrading monitoring from FOH console mix buses controlled by stage artists to either DP48 or a dedicated monitor mixer with outputs to the IEMs.

My questions here are about DP48 and follow after I read the below threads top to bottom.

First off a simple description of our existing setup:

Stage R_________FOH Booth________Broadcast Booth
(B)DL32(A)__<->___(B)M32(A)___<->____(B)M32C(A)

Stage R sources connect to DL32 inputs.
Stage L sources connect to FOH M32 inputs via facility installed wiring.
Inputs required for a given event are routed to FOH M32 channels via USER_IN.
FOH M32 USER_IN 1-32 are routed to AES50A 9-40 to allow BC M32C access to same stage sources.
FOH M32 AUXIN 1-6/T are routed to AES50A 1-8 to allow BC M32C access to FOH Booth line-level sources (Ipod, ProPresenter, CD, etc.).
FOH M32 includes Waves SoundGrid for offboard effects processing of selected channels.


Any new monitoring system (DP48 or new mixer) would be connected downstream of BC M32C(A).

Now questions.
1. It is unlikely we will be able to arrange four DP48s to allow all stage artists easy access to a nearby DP48.
As well, a few of our bands number 10 (or 12) artists.
So, how may DP48s may be deployed?

I see DP48s may be daisy-chained but loose the POE feature. Right?

To use POE you are restricted to 4 DP48s connected directly do a HUB4.
What happens if you daisy-chain down from one of those 4 DP48s?
What happens if you daisy-chain two HUB4s?

2. More cables and wall-worts on stage would just be SO COOL.... NOT!!! :evil:
Has anyone tried to power a DP48 with a portable 24VDC battery pack?

3. Really the DP48s are selecting from the 48 'lines' coming down the AES50 into one of the 12 stereo groups, right?
The HUB4 is the same thing, it just sends the 48 lines coming down the AES50 to each of the four output ports. Right?

4. When setting DP48 groups, what happens if more than one AES50 line is assigned to the same group?
Are they simply summed?

5. Currently TalkBack is achieved by sending TB-A to the monitor mix-buses in FOH M32.
How is console TB achieved with DP48s?

6. Midas' website states 'Midas PRO SERIES and M32 console input channel labelling and colour information transmitted to DP48 personal monitor mixer via AES50 input channels".
Is this for real, and would it work in the above detailed interconnection where FOH M32 is the primary source of channel information?

7. Assuming all DP48s are connected to a HUB4, Midas' website states "Remote setup and control of DP48 personal monitor mixer via Midas hubs".
Is this for real? How does it work?

8. Follow-up to above...
There is concern that deploying DP48s would require setup volunteers to configure a handful of new devices for each event, whereas all configuration is now done at FOH M32 and copied to BC M32C, which BTW we've managed to largely automate using Paul's tools. (By configuration I mean channel naming and colouring, and default mixes for each artist.) Are we out to lunch here? Can all configuration be done from the FOH booth?
Can the FOH Booth tech assist a stage artist with their DP48 remotely from the booth, or must they walk down-house to the stage to interact directly with the artists' DP48?

I think that's it for now.
I appologise for the missive - when you provide answers you are entitled to one free beer for each answer. Report to me in Sherwood Park, Alberta to collect your reward. :lol:

Thanks in advance.
Dwayne A
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pvannatto
Posts: 1297
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:48 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Considering deploying DP48s and have questions

Post by pvannatto »

DwayneA wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:03 am It is unlikely we will be able to arrange four DP48s to allow all stage artists easy access to a nearby DP48.
As well, a few of our bands number 10 (or 12) artists.
So, how may DP48s may be deployed?
Assuming the last sentence has a typo and you are asking how many DP48s can be deployed, I don't think we've found the limit yet. One of the users in Holland used 38 DP48 (with 9 Hub4) for an orchestra setting of 76 musicians.
I see DP48s may be daisy-chained but loose the POE feature. Right?
Correct
To use POE you are restricted to 4 DP48s connected directly do a HUB4.
Correct
What happens if you daisy-chain down from one of those 4 DP48s?
The 48 channels of the AES50 pass through. But you lose the POE and must use the wall warts.
What happens if you daisy-chain two HUB4s?
The 48 channels of the AES50 pass through to the next Hub4. As mentioned above, a user daisy chained 9 Hub4. Each Hub4 provides the AES50 signals and POE to 4 DP48.
Has anyone tried to power a DP48 with a portable 24VDC battery pack?
I have read that someone did use a POE insert device and it did work.
Really the DP48s are selecting from the 48 'lines' coming down the AES50 into one of the 12 stereo groups, right?
Yes, each group can have one or more AES50 signals assigned to it.

[quote4]
The HUB4 is the same thing, it just sends the 48 lines coming down the AES50 to each of the four output ports. Right?
[/quote]
Correct
When setting DP48 groups, what happens if more than one AES50 line is assigned to the same group?
Are they simply summed?
The AES50 signals are assigned to each group using the Assign button. By default, these signals are set to 0db level and pan centered. But using the Edit button, each signal can be mixed by setting the level (off to +10 db) and pan. Understand that these group settings are for both mixes (A and B), similar to sending a bus mix of drums to a P16 channel in that the musicians can change the overall level of that mix, but not the individual drum signals.
5. Currently TalkBack is achieved by sending TB-A to the monitor mix-buses in FOH M32.
How is console TB achieved with DP48s?

It is the same with DP48. But when using the Hub4, the DP48 internal mic can be used to have the musicians talk back to FOH (on AES50 chan 48).
Midas' website states 'Midas PRO SERIES and M32 console input channel labelling and colour information transmitted to DP48 personal monitor mixer via AES50 input channels".
Is this for real, and would it work in the above detailed interconnection where FOH M32 is the primary source of channel information?
Yes, but with the X32/M32 the channel strips own the scribble strip data (icon, color, name) not the inputs (Wing inputs have separate icon/color/name data). This means that you would have to send Direct Out signals of the channel strips down the AES50 (using the Out 1-16, Aux Out or Ultranet screens) in order have these available at the DP48. But yes, the scribble strip data will pass through the interconnectivity of the various consoles (as long as you are using the latest firmware).
Assuming all DP48s are connected to a HUB4, Midas' website states "Remote setup and control of DP48 personal monitor mixer via Midas hubs".
Is this for real? How does it work?
Yes you can set one DP48 as a master to control any of the other DP48 (set to slave). As well, if any DP48 are set to slave, the Library, AES50 data can be broadcast from the console to the DP48. I used this feature before our Christmas Eve service at my church. They are borrowing my Hub4 and 4 DP48 to try them out (to replace the existing P16s they've been using since 2012). Using X32-Edit (on a laptop connected to the X32 via wifi), I made up and saved 4 individual DP48 setups (one for accoustic guitars, one for electric guitars, one for keys/piano and one for drums/bass). Then going to each DP48 (eg. accoustic DP48), I set it to slave mode, then loaded each setup (eg. accoustic) and broadcasted the data to that DP48. Turning off slave mode and going to the next DP48, I repeated these steps. This made the initial setup of each of the DP48 much quicker and easier.
BTW we've managed to largely automate using Paul's tools.
Cool!!
Can all configuration be done from the FOH booth?
As explained above, most of the settings can be configured at the console nearest (from AES50 connectivity perspective) to the DP48/Hub4. If the Hub4/DP48 are connected to the M32C, the configurations will have to be broadcasted from there.
Can the FOH Booth tech assist a stage artist with their DP48 remotely from the booth, or must they walk down-house to the stage to interact directly with the artists' DP48?
Assistance needs to be done at the DP48. Sorry for the additional walking. But it is good for your health :)
Report to me in Sherwood Park, Alberta to collect your reward
I just may take you up on your offer - haven't been to the Edmonton area for a few years.

On the other hand, you could come and visit me (in southwestern Ontario) and see the Hub4 and DP48 in action (and bring the beer) ;)
Paul Vannatto
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DwayneA
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:00 pm

Re: Considering deploying DP48s and have questions

Post by DwayneA »

Hey Paul.

Lots of good info. Appreciate the quick reply.
I am leaning to a M32C/DN4816-O solution, but need to read over all this stuff again and consider my recommendation.

I'm not keeping score, but looks like we're up to something less than a flat.

D
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