AutoMate Scenes

Support forum for the AutoMate family of console automation specifically designed for Behringer/Midas consoles by Patrick Gilles-Maillot.

This forum is also for support with Reaper and the X-Live expansion card with respect to AutoMate.

https://x32ram.com
Forum rules
For generic X-Live support, please go to the appropriate forum here:
viewforum.php?f=47
curtbl
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:00 am
Location: Mill Creek Washington

AutoMate Scenes

Post by curtbl »

So good day Patrick, was going to shoot you an email on your site x32ram, but decided my thoughts, comments questions may also benefit others from your responses.
Finally had time to really sit down and spend sometime with Wing Automate.... Was impressed with the initial look a few weeks ago and now with time find that this is a great program. So first Thanks to you for the effort, the dollars spent was well worth the investment
So now having some time a few questions and a comment or so.
First a comment as to what is happening on my PC when DVS and Automate both run.
My configuration is Full Domain Network with DHCP Server with static address range also. Internal BrooklynII card in the Wing 64x64 with the wing running at 48k and clocking to the Dante Internal Card. Network wiring hits the first port on the Wing allowing the Wing and the internal Dante card to get their own IP address from the server, from the second port I connect the PC running DVS 64x64, Reaper and Automate. Gosh it works great, however I find that if I have DVS running before I start Automate, Automate will not start. Turn off DVS and start Automate then DVS and all is good. Reaper running or not running does not make a difference. Just a note thought you may find interesting.

Now for the questions / statements that I am not understanding the best practices.
1. two files are created when I create a new Mix. At what point or Wing Status or ? is the scn file created. Seems that I should have the wing completely setup for the session I want to move into before I create a mix??? And if I go into a session and realize I want some additions or changes in the base settings or initial scn settings I have to create a new mix creating a new scn file.....
Asking because when I save and existing file I face a window that comes up and asking for Start or Current if I hit current things seem fine but not sure what is actually happening, if I hit Start, I "assumed" that it would recreate the scn file but in fact during a save if I hit Start it "resets" the console, I'm not sure to what but not what I hope to save as a new "start" of scn.

2. At what point having readwrite activated does the other file *.xrr start to be written, I"m "assuming" only when the play is pressed on the Wing?
3. If I hit Play, putting the wing in pause instead of stop will the file continue to be written and changes I make during the pause period continue to be recorded to the xxr file?
Just trying to totally understand when either of the files are being created, updated etc. so I do not have extraneous stuff in the files..

BTW again what a great program for Wing Reaper
Curt
User avatar
MJKlein
Site Admin
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:08 pm
Location: Hukou, Taiwan
Contact:

Re: AutoMate software series

Post by MJKlein »

@curtbl

If you want to add anything to the initial scene, just use the buttons on the transport controls to set the new starting scene. You do not have to make a new mix.

Normally I start a mix with a standard blank scene. But you don't have to do that. You can press "New Mix" at any time and that will create a new session. If you chose "Reset Initial Scene" that will create a new scene for you based on the current console state.

About the 2 settings for saving, Current and Start:

Current saves the state of the console at that very moment you are saving.

Start saves the "initial scene" of the console - i.e. the beginning state of the mix. This also puts the console into that starting state, so if you haven't specified an initial starting state scene, it will be whatever the starting happens to be at that moment.

AutoMate uses scenes for everything. Even if you do not use the transport controls to set a starting scene, one is created for you. If you do not update that scene by manually setting it, the starting scene will remain whatever it is, and that is the state of the console at the time you began working on a new mix. That's why the console seems to "reset" when you save as Start. Not good, unless you already have a mix going with an initial state set up.

Note: if you do that by mistake and you lose your work, you can use the console scene system and load Scene 98 to get back to the last Autosave state.

If you want to do an incremental save on a mix, you should use Current. Only save as Current if you have the initial scene set how you like it.

Once you have a mix going, and you have set an initial start scene, from that point on you should save the mix in the Start state.

Automation is recorded when 2 conditions are met: Automation is on, and the Read/Write state is Write.

When writing automation, "instantaneous" changes are possible by using the Pause button. As you are playing back the mix (in either Read or Write mode), go to Pause where you want the change to be made, then go into (or confirm) Write mode. All console moves will be recorded as occurring at that time. When you are finished, press Play to continue mixing, or press Stop to end the recording of automation. Playing back the mix will send all those commands to the console as fast as the system will take them. I used this technique to bring up a stereo pair of guitars into the mix with the pan pots dead center. Then, I made the guitars instantly go stereo by pausing and panning hard L/R. Worked perfectly.
湖口鄉新竹縣台灣 Hukou Township, Hsinchu County, Taiwan
Behringer X32/Dante + Soundcraft Ghost + X32ReaperAutoMate
English/中文
This site is hosted at Dathorn: https://dathorn.com/index.php?r=489
https://www.youtube.com/@phoenixmediaforge
User avatar
pmaillot
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:32 pm

Re: AutoMate Scenes

Post by pmaillot »

curtbl wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 am So good day Patrick, was going to shoot you an email on your site x32ram, but decided my thoughts, comments questions may also benefit others from your responses.
Finally had time to really sit down and spend sometime with Wing Automate.... Was impressed with the initial look a few weeks ago and now with time find that this is a great program. So first Thanks to you for the effort, the dollars spent was well worth the investment
[...] I find that if I have DVS running before I start Automate, Automate will not start. Turn off DVS and start Automate then DVS and all is good. [...]
Hello Curt,

Thanks for the good vibes :) and yes your notes and questions may help others, so good choice to have them here.

I have a Dante for my WING but have yet to install it as I'm in the middle of a move (internet box only showing up UPS today and fiber will be installer next Monday). It could well be that DVS acts as a hub for the WING and if launched before the console it prevents the broadcast message sent at launch time of WingReaperAutoMate to reach the WING. I'll check that asap and see what options are possible.

As to your question on scenes (.scn file)... As you know, scenes do not exist (yet) with WING. The dev team is still working on a scene/cue/show implementation to happen in a future release of SW. In order to have the automate program working, I need a start state and I need to maintain an updated (current) state of the console parameters at all times. Besides moving faders/pan/mutes for your mix, all WING parameter changes define the evolution of the internal state/scene when your mix evolves. Note that no actual file is created until you save your mix (unless autosave is on) as all data is kept in your PC memory.
What @MJKlein replied is absolutely correct, and there may be different ways of thinking of the 'current' scene; He works a lot with incremental steps when mixing, when I try to get the initial scene as static as possible (may not be the best practice, but it works for me). As a result, MJ will save a few times using the 'current' state of his WING as working steps, before getting to a final mix state where he will use (and save) the 'start' scene.

The whole notion of start scene is needed anyways to ensure that when replaying a mix, your desk is in a known state, whith parameters set as they were when you created your mix.
2. At what point having readwrite activated does the other file *.xrr start to be written, I"m "assuming" only when the play is pressed on the Wing?
ReadWrite is 'just' a flag. Writing (in PC memory) of WING events to memorize you mix actions/changes takes place when the transport is in PAUSE or PLAY state. The PAUSE state is important as you can accumulate several changes taking place at the (almost) same time this way, then going throug WING menus and screen may take a few seconds to update an FX parameter for example.

Again, actual writing to a file takes place when saving your mix, not when mixing (unless autosave is active)
3. If I hit Play, putting the wing in pause instead of stop will the file continue to be written and changes I make during the pause period continue to be recorded to the xxr file?
See above. You are right.
Just trying to totally understand when either of the files are being created, updated etc. so I do not have extraneous stuff in the files..
Of course, and that's good.
Remember you can 'post-edit' your .xrr files using the Xrr_edit program, It can be tedious, but can also help in removing very specific (unwanted) OSC events, or adding ones (better know what you're doing then :) ).


@MJKlein proposed me to add a new maker state to 'pause' the mix at a user specified precise time. I'll do that in a coming release of the AutoMate programs (X32 and WING).

-Patrick
User avatar
MJKlein
Site Admin
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:08 pm
Location: Hukou, Taiwan
Contact:

Re: AutoMate Scenes

Post by MJKlein »

pmaillot wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:15 am ....there may be different ways of thinking of the 'current' scene; [MJ] works a lot with incremental steps when mixing, when I try to get the initial scene as static as possible (may not be the best practice, but it works for me). As a result, MJ will save a few times using the 'current' state of his [X32] as working steps....
That's what is so great about AutoMate - it works they way you need it to work for your workflow.

One of the cool things is that sometimes I'll be working on a mix and then decide that I don't want to work on it anymore. I'll save it and walk away or work on something else. It was never that easy before AutoMate. I used to have to stick with a mix until it was done, even if I got really tired and wanted to do something else. Every engineer has a saturation point. Once that point is reached it's best to work on something else, something different. Now, I can.

As I'm building a mix, I listen back to the automation moves I've programmed thus far as I bring different instruments or vocal tracks into the mix. With each addition, I do another Save if I feel I need to. That way I can go back to previous points instead of using the Undo function (which I use for more immediate undo tasks). I press that "set scene" button many times throughout the process so I don't accidently undo something I just changed that I need to have set at the beginning.

I have a hobby of mixing famous records from the original tracks. I have several going at any given time. I'll put 30 mins in here, 2 hours in there, all for recreation, learning and practice. Recently, I did a mix of Boston's More Than A Feeling (21 tracks) that is so much better than I could have done with the Studer and API console in the 80s. There is so much depth and clarity and of course, the precise moves from AutoMate that would be difficult to do manually. Quite frankly, when I listen back to that mix, I am literally astonished at what can be achieved with the X32 and Reaper with AutoMate.

We should start an "Advanced AutoMate Mixing Techniques" thread. There are so many things this program can do, especially with the recently added functions!
湖口鄉新竹縣台灣 Hukou Township, Hsinchu County, Taiwan
Behringer X32/Dante + Soundcraft Ghost + X32ReaperAutoMate
English/中文
This site is hosted at Dathorn: https://dathorn.com/index.php?r=489
https://www.youtube.com/@phoenixmediaforge
curtbl
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:00 am
Location: Mill Creek Washington

Re: AutoMate software series

Post by curtbl »

MJKlein wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:12 am @curtbl

If you want to add anything to the initial scene, just use the buttons on the transport controls to set the new starting scene. You do not have to make a new mix.

Normally I start a mix with a standard blank scene. But you don't have to do that. You can press "New Mix" at any time and that will create a new session. If you chose "Reset Initial Scene" that will create a new scene for you based on the current console state.

About the 2 settings for saving, Current and Start:

Current saves the state of the console at that very moment you are saving.

Start saves the "initial scene" of the console - i.e. the beginning state of the mix. This also puts the console into that starting state, so if you haven't specified an initial starting state scene, it will be whatever the starting happens to be at that moment.

AutoMate uses scenes for everything. Even if you do not use the transport controls to set a starting scene, one is created for you. If you do not update that scene by manually setting it, the starting scene will remain whatever it is, and that is the state of the console at the time you began working on a new mix. That's why the console seems to "reset" when you save as Start. Not good, unless you already have a mix going with an initial state set up.

Note: if you do that by mistake and you lose your work, you can use the console scene system and load Scene 98 to get back to the last Autosave state.

If you want to do an incremental save on a mix, you should use Current. Only save as Current if you have the initial scene set how you like it.

Once you have a mix going, and you have set an initial start scene, from that point on you should save the mix in the Start state.

Automation is recorded when 2 conditions are met: Automation is on, and the Read/Write state is Write.

When writing automation, "instantaneous" changes are possible by using the Pause button. As you are playing back the mix (in either Read or Write mode), go to Pause where you want the change to be made, then go into (or confirm) Write mode. All console moves will be recorded as occurring at that time. When you are finished, press Play to continue mixing, or press Stop to end the recording of automation. Playing back the mix will send all those commands to the console as fast as the system will take them. I used this technique to bring up a stereo pair of guitars into the mix with the pan pots dead center. Then, I made the guitars instantly go stereo by pausing and panning hard L/R. Worked perfectly.
MJ, finally got back to the forum.... Life is good but sometimes to busy...... I'm reading all the following posts with much interest, and continue to look forward to trying the changes and suggestions... and as my own understanding gets better, actually love the technique you mention later in being able to save the mix and walk away and continue later... good stuff.
However here is one question for probably both you and Patrick.... Following is a quote from you earlier in the text above...

"Note: if you do that by mistake and you lose your work, you can use the console scene system and load Scene 98 to get back to the last Autosave state."

I understand that statement in the relation to the X32, how would you call scene 98 from the wing, or is one saved to the Wing under a different Name or at all. I'm missing something I would guess.
Thanks
Curt
curtbl
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:00 am
Location: Mill Creek Washington

Re: AutoMate Scenes

Post by curtbl »

MJKlein wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:00 am
pmaillot wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:15 am ....there may be different ways of thinking of the 'current' scene; [MJ] works a lot with incremental steps when mixing, when I try to get the initial scene as static as possible (may not be the best practice, but it works for me). As a result, MJ will save a few times using the 'current' state of his [X32] as working steps....
That's what is so great about AutoMate - it works they way you need it to work for your workflow.

One of the cool things is that sometimes I'll be working on a mix and then decide that I don't want to work on it anymore. I'll save it and walk away or work on something else. It was never that easy before AutoMate. I used to have to stick with a mix until it was done, even if I got really tired and wanted to do something else. Every engineer has a saturation point. Once that point is reached it's best to work on something else, something different. Now, I can.

As I'm building a mix, I listen back to the automation moves I've programmed thus far as I bring different instruments or vocal tracks into the mix. With each addition, I do another Save if I feel I need to. That way I can go back to previous points instead of using the Undo function (which I use for more immediate undo tasks). I press that "set scene" button many times throughout the process so I don't accidently undo something I just changed that I need to have set at the beginning.

I have a hobby of mixing famous records from the original tracks. I have several going at any given time. I'll put 30 mins in here, 2 hours in there, all for recreation, learning and practice. Recently, I did a mix of Boston's More Than A Feeling (21 tracks) that is so much better than I could have done with the Studer and API console in the 80s. There is so much depth and clarity and of course, the precise moves from AutoMate that would be difficult to do manually. Quite frankly, when I listen back to that mix, I am literally astonished at what can be achieved with the X32 and Reaper with AutoMate.

We should start an "Advanced AutoMate Mixing Techniques" thread. There are so many things this program can do, especially with the recently added functions!
MJ, I agree and like the suggestions. Thanks. It appears you and I do a lot of the same thing, remixing old classics. I mix both stereo and surround as I have a 7.2.4 Atmos system, unfortunately I can't truly do Atmos so just stick to surround, but love the theater/studio for atmos movies and concerts.... Hans Zimmer in Prauge is stunning.
And your right my old mobile truck was stunning for the day, but what I could do now with this console!! I just like my semi-retirement enough to just enjoy this and not make it a complete life style any more. I was lucky and blessed enough to have been able to learn under some of the greats in LA at the time, Bill Lazarus @ Cherokee and Brian Ingoldsby at Universal/MCA. A lot of 2 inch tape in those days. Personally years later in the Northwest had a busy Mobile truck, got to work with some greats in the day from Heart and Tom Petty to Mason Williams, that was some great stuff.... with Audiotronics Son of 36Grand and 3M Model 56 out of the Record Plant.. as the base pieces in the rig.. Keeping that 56 aligned was always just a Hoot. Ah those were the days!!!
Love your comment about what can be achieved with the X32 and Reaper and Automate, I concur, however listening back to some of my original stuff from the day, well! we pulled off some pretty amazing stuff! Again! those were the days!
C
User avatar
MJKlein
Site Admin
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:08 pm
Location: Hukou, Taiwan
Contact:

Re: AutoMate Scenes

Post by MJKlein »

@curtbl yeah man, you did some great stuff! It's surprising how pristine those old analog sessions are. If I had the space I'd be cutting tracks with the Ghost on 2" and mixing in Reaper.
湖口鄉新竹縣台灣 Hukou Township, Hsinchu County, Taiwan
Behringer X32/Dante + Soundcraft Ghost + X32ReaperAutoMate
English/中文
This site is hosted at Dathorn: https://dathorn.com/index.php?r=489
https://www.youtube.com/@phoenixmediaforge
User avatar
MJKlein
Site Admin
Posts: 1020
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:08 pm
Location: Hukou, Taiwan
Contact:

Re: AutoMate software series

Post by MJKlein »

curtbl wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:01 am "Note: if you do that by mistake and you lose your work, you can use the console scene system and load Scene 98 to get back to the last Autosave state."

I understand that statement in the relation to the X32, how would you call scene 98 from the wing, or is one saved to the Wing under a different Name or at all. I'm missing something I would guess.
Curt, @pmaillot is going to have to answer you on that as I have no idea. I've never even seen a WING here in Taiwan.

If you do make that mistake, alternatively, you should immediately load the Autosave file before it gets overwritten.
湖口鄉新竹縣台灣 Hukou Township, Hsinchu County, Taiwan
Behringer X32/Dante + Soundcraft Ghost + X32ReaperAutoMate
English/中文
This site is hosted at Dathorn: https://dathorn.com/index.php?r=489
https://www.youtube.com/@phoenixmediaforge
User avatar
pmaillot
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:32 pm

Re: AutoMate software series

Post by pmaillot »

MJKlein wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:43 am
curtbl wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:01 am "Note: if you do that by mistake and you lose your work, you can use the console scene system and load Scene 98 to get back to the last Autosave state."

I understand that statement in the relation to the X32, how would you call scene 98 from the wing, or is one saved to the Wing under a different Name or at all. I'm missing something I would guess.
Curt, @pmaillot is going to have to answer you on that as I have no idea. I've never even seen a WING here in Taiwan.

If you do make that mistake, alternatively, you should immediately load the Autosave file before it gets overwritten.
Well, as you guessed, scene #98 does not exist in WING, scenes don't exist as a matter of fact (for now). As a workaround, I programmed what scene management does: send a series of node-like requests and save the returned data. WING does support nodes and by using them I can reconstruct what looks like a scene. This is what is actually saved under the .scn file created with your mix. As to scene #98, it is just the equivalent, but saved in RAM, rather than in a file, and because I don't need some sections such as IO, I don't have to save all nodes. So the internal scene is 1/3 of the scene file and as it is in PC memory, it's much faster. This makes the "scene #98" in WING manageable for the times one plays with the wheel of when RtZ occurs.

-Patrick
curtbl
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:00 am
Location: Mill Creek Washington

Re: AutoMate Scenes

Post by curtbl »

So Patrick, finally got my system set back up and ran into a interesting scenario when trying to get things operational again!
You may have been following Gary and my conversations on Networking! First did you get your systems running?

Second I had real issues getting my system to operate again! but with network troubleshooting I got it figured out. Follows is the scenario and I think fixes for the future.
Your setup documentation for Automate is really great but what I found you may want to add side notes or at least a explanation of what can happen.

So understanding networking and DHCP vs. Static addressing of devices. I'm going to take this moment to explain and I"m not sure you need it but hopefully it will help others.

So in a typical network your Internet provider provides a router and it usually will provide IP addresses to all devices plugged into the network weather it's a pc, mac, wireless tablet etc. oh yes including a Dante Card or device Address looks something like this 192.168.1.xxx. There are other addressing options, but the previous is typical. Sometimes, and in my case, I provide a DHCP server that will handout all the addresses and it connects to the Router for internet access.

That aside when you plugin or turn on a device it will get a IP address as a reservation from the DHCP server. USUALLY, that address will remain available to the device even when off due to the "reservation". That said it is possible to have a "reservation" expire and if another device gets powered on it could grab that same IP address that was originally assigned to the original device....... Have I made you crazy yet?

So that was my issue today. Turns out the Wing remained at the same IP address but my laptop picked up another IP Address. So the IP Address assigned in Reaper was partially wrong and also in Reaper Automate. I was still getting Audio because it was coming through DANTE but a ton of other issues existed due to incorrect IP address on the PC.
Once corrected in Automate .INI and Reaper Preferences all worked correctly again.
Now with all that said it is possible to assign a "STATIC" address range in the DHCP server that will never get assigned automagiclly to a reservation or device. So in my WING i now have a Static address assigned, I also went into my laptop and assigned a Static Address so Reaper and Reaper automate will never have to be updated.
Sounds great? here is a caveat..... If like me you assign a Static IP to a laptop and take your laptop anywhere else you may have to go back to DHCP to get an address from where you are. ie. coffee shop etc.....
Here is another caveat that could cause issues especially with laptops mac or PC. If using a USB to Ethernet adapter or different ones, as I have several, and plugged into different ports on your PC or Mac can also result in getting different IP Addresses. Thus again Static IP addresses makes things easier to manage especially if your using a laptop as I am.

Well I may have completely confused some of you, I hope not!
Enclosed a pic, not very good ones of my theater setup.
Curt
Image

Image
Post Reply

Return to “AutoMate Support”